Comments on: But What about the Children? http://urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/ Reformed Sermons, Discussion Programs & Lessons, with Audio Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:16:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Gary http://urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-1022 Gary Sat, 30 Dec 2006 22:27:13 +0000 http://www.start.urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-1022 I just found your site and this was the first program I've listened to but I will surely be checking out more of them. I commend you for all the time and effort that surely goes into production of this site and the recordings. I'm a member of URC in W. MI and will spread the word about your site. I thought maybe I could add some historical background of the Dutch Reformed tradition as found in the Chr. Ref. Church as it is the direct ancestor of many of us in the URC and as I am fourth generation raised in the CRC. What I relate is only a mixture of my memories and oral tradition as I received it from my parents and I have never taken the time to verify the facts independently. The CRC historically made great effort to distinguish between the institutional church and the organic church and it was practically apparent in the "societies" found in the life of the church. Catechesis was the responsibility of the institutional church and therefore under the direct authority of the consistory and/or council and limited to teaching catechism to the youth (originally mandated to be taught by the minister as it was considered to be an extension of the pulpit or in extreme cases by an able elder). "Societies" on the other hand were just that, social organizations formed by, of, and for members of a church and considered to be a function of the organic church. As they used church facilities and the members as individuals were under the authority of their elders, the consistory/coucil had only an indirect involvement or oversight. Evidence of this distinction is in the various "societies" found in the churches: Men's Society, Women's Society, and Young People's Society. Each of these "societies" had there own independent organization, by-laws, officers, etc. Also they were often part of a larger organization which had elected board members, often published their own magazine and usually had some form of mass meeting on an annual basis. In the case of Men's Society they published the "Men's Messenger" with articles of interest and a weekly lesson for group study and they had an annual Mass Meeting with a dinner and speaker. Young People's Society was part of the Young Calvinist Federation and likewise had a monthy magazine and an annual Young People's Convention. (Interestingly the Young People's Society was an innovation of the last 40 or so years. Formerly there were Young Men's Society and Young Women's Society which when the young people became adults they moved into the respective Men's/Women's Society.) Likewise in the case of the Women's Society, though I'm less clear on the specifics. I heartily share your concern for maintaining the purity of the mission of the church as institute (preaching and sacraments) lest she become distracted by these activities more rightly conducted by the church as organism. In our local congregation (one which left as a congregation from the CRC) we now have a Men's Bible Class (and likewise the other former "societies") which is under the direct authority of the consistory/council. We seem to have lost something that we once had. When I bring up this point (informally) to others in my church they look at me like I'm from another planet. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." Sorry about the length of the post. I could also get on my soapbox about the innovations of Sunday School and Vacation Bible School in "reformed" churches but I'll resist the temptation. Keep up the good work! I just found your site and this was the first program I’ve listened to but I will surely be checking out more of them. I commend you for all the time and effort that surely goes into production of this site and the recordings. I’m a member of URC in W. MI and will spread the word about your site.
I thought maybe I could add some historical background of the Dutch Reformed tradition as found in the Chr. Ref. Church as it is the direct ancestor of many of us in the URC and as I am fourth generation raised in the CRC.
What I relate is only a mixture of my memories and oral tradition as I received it from my parents and I have never taken the time to verify the facts independently.
The CRC historically made great effort to distinguish between the institutional church and the organic church and it was practically apparent in the “societies” found in the life of the church. Catechesis was the responsibility of the institutional church and therefore under the direct authority of the consistory and/or council and limited to teaching catechism to the youth (originally mandated to be taught by the minister as it was considered to be an extension of the pulpit or in extreme cases by an able elder). “Societies” on the other hand were just that, social organizations formed by, of, and for members of a church and considered to be a function of the organic church. As they used church facilities and the members as individuals were under the authority of their elders, the consistory/coucil had only an indirect involvement or oversight.
Evidence of this distinction is in the various “societies” found in the churches: Men’s Society, Women’s Society, and Young People’s Society. Each of these “societies” had there own independent organization, by-laws, officers, etc. Also they were often part of a larger organization which had elected board members, often published their own magazine and usually had some form of mass meeting on an annual basis. In the case of Men’s Society they published the “Men’s Messenger” with articles of interest and a weekly lesson for group study and they had an annual Mass Meeting with a dinner and speaker. Young People’s Society was part of the Young Calvinist Federation and likewise had a monthy magazine and an annual Young People’s Convention. (Interestingly the Young People’s Society was an innovation of the last 40 or so years. Formerly there were Young Men’s Society and Young Women’s Society which when the young people became adults they moved into the respective Men’s/Women’s Society.) Likewise in the case of the Women’s Society, though I’m less clear on the specifics.
I heartily share your concern for maintaining the purity of the mission of the church as institute (preaching and sacraments) lest she become distracted by these activities more rightly conducted by the church as organism. In our local congregation (one which left as a congregation from the CRC) we now have a Men’s Bible Class (and likewise the other former “societies”) which is under the direct authority of the consistory/council. We seem to have lost something that we once had. When I bring up this point (informally) to others in my church they look at me like I’m from another planet.
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.”
Sorry about the length of the post. I could also get on my soapbox about the innovations of Sunday School and Vacation Bible School in “reformed” churches but I’ll resist the temptation.
Keep up the good work!

]]> By: ANP http://urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-923 ANP Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:10:28 +0000 http://www.start.urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-923 I'm sure you hear people complain all the time about your "abrasiveness" and "encourage" you to be more "Christ-like" with your rhetoric. If I may offer genuine encouragement, pay no mind to their pedantic objections. I absolutely love your show! You actually come out and clearly say exactly what needs to be said (besides, it's what everyone else is thinking, anyway). Keep up the amazing work. By the way, when's the next show? I’m sure you hear people complain all the time about your “abrasiveness” and “encourage” you to be more “Christ-like” with your rhetoric.

If I may offer genuine encouragement, pay no mind to their pedantic objections. I absolutely love your show! You actually come out and clearly say exactly what needs to be said (besides, it’s what everyone else is thinking, anyway). Keep up the amazing work.

By the way, when’s the next show?

]]> By: VHT http://urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-920 VHT Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:21:10 +0000 http://www.start.urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-920 In a local Reformed Church's website I found the following justification for Youth Ministries: "Children as well as adults belong to God's covenant and congregation through Christ's redeeming blood and the Holy Spirit, who works faith. God's promises to the children are therefore no less than to adults. Whether your child is a preschooler or a high school student, <b>there is something to help them grow in faith in Jesus Christ.</b>" Does this mean that Almighty God has instituted youth ministries as a "means of grace?" If so, can one find biblical warrant for such a claim? After all, I thought it was pretty clear that there is only two means of grace, at least according to the <b>reformed</b> creeds: the preached Word and the Sacraments. Moreover, I thought the <b>promises</b> aforementioned referred to the promises of the gospel offered to adults and their families in the preached Word. What say ye? In a local Reformed Church’s website I found the following justification for Youth Ministries:

“Children as well as adults belong to God’s covenant and congregation through Christ’s redeeming blood and the Holy Spirit, who works faith. God’s promises to the children are therefore no less than to adults. Whether your child is a preschooler or a high school student, there is something to help them grow in faith in Jesus Christ.”

Does this mean that Almighty God has instituted youth ministries as a “means of grace?” If so, can one find biblical warrant for such a claim? After all, I thought it was pretty clear that there is only two means of grace, at least according to the reformed creeds: the preached Word and the Sacraments. Moreover, I thought the promises aforementioned referred to the promises of the gospel offered to adults and their families in the preached Word.

What say ye?

]]> By: What about "young adults"? http://urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-871 What about "young adults"? Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:28:43 +0000 http://www.start.urclearning.org/2006/12/10/but-what-about-the-children/#comment-871 Pasadena and Ontario URC "Big Bear Trip for Young Adults": http://fmgamboa.googlepages.com/bigbear Pasadena and Ontario URC “Big Bear Trip for Young Adults”:

http://fmgamboa.googlepages.com/bigbear

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