Sinners & Saints

10 comments so far

1. Jun 29, 2006charles baker   #

   “Southern-Fried”? I lived in North Texas for awhile and there, the unmarked brown bags at Baptist picnics were proverbial! Good Humor!
   Charles

2. Jun 29, 2006Vic   #

   Yes! You’re back!

   No more wussy-kkla rubbish!

3. Jun 30, 2006Frank Gamboa   #

   Alright! Sinners and saints keeps on rolling and Adam’s humor is now uncut.;) Good work guys. Look forward to each week!

4. Jul 1, 2006Silva Stepanian   #

   Holier than thou isn’t pious enough anymore. Now we’re holier than Christ! The pastors in this discussion really show their listeners the self-justifying implications of adding to Scripture. Very enlightening.

5. Jul 2, 2006dan dundon   #

   I firmly believe that the Scriptures teach moderation in the use of alcohol. However, I know that over 50% of all traffic fatalities are caused by alcohol abuse and that in our inner city slums you can find a liquor store on almost every corner. Perhaps in a society where alcohol is used in moderation one would not have to worry about this issue. However, this is not the case in modern America. Perhaps our Southern Baptist brothers and sisters are trying to set a better example by choosing not to embibe! Perhaps we in the URC should be more concerned with the deaths that are directly attributed to alcohol abuse and less concern with the loss of the liberties that are too often used as an excuse for self indulgence.

   I have a problem with the use of the phrase “Southern-Fried Baptist”. I think we must articulate our disagreements without being disrespectful! I would remind everyone of James 1:26, “If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.”

   I have include the resolution fron the Southern Baptist Convention for all to see. I agree that there resolutions are quite firm.

   Resolution No. 5
   ON ALCOHOL USE IN AMERICA

   WHEREAS, Years of research confirm biblical warnings that alcohol use leads to physical, mental, and emotional damage (e.g., Proverbs 23:29-35); and

   WHEREAS, Alcohol use has led to countless injuries and deaths on our nation’s highways; and

   WHEREAS, The breakup of families and homes can be directly and indirectly attributed to alcohol use by one or more members of a family; and

   WHEREAS, The use of alcohol as a recreational beverage has been shown to lead individuals down a path of addiction to alcohol and toward the use of other kinds of drugs, both legal and illegal; and

   WHEREAS, There are some religious leaders who are now advocating the consumption of alcoholic beverages based on a misinterpretation of the doctrine of “our freedom in Christ”; now, therefore, be it

   RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, June 13-14, 2006, express our total opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of alcoholic beverages; and be it further

   RESOLVED, That we urge that no one be elected to serve as a trustee or member of any entity or committee of the Southern Baptist Convention that is a user of alcoholic beverages.

   RESOLVED, That we urge Southern Baptists to take an active role in supporting legislation that is intended to curb alcohol use in our communities and nation; and be it further

   RESOLVED, That we urge Southern Baptists to be actively involved in educating students and adults concerning the destructive nature of alcoholic beverages; and be it finally

   RESOLVED, That we commend organizations and ministries that treat alcohol-related problems from a biblical perspective and promote abstinence and encourage local churches to begin and/or support such biblically-based ministries.

6. Jul 2, 2006Dr. Rosenthal   #

   The argument that one should altogether avoid anything that has the potential to harm is specious – should one avoid driving cars altogether because some individuals drive recklessly in this society? Is not a single life worth all the convenience and enjoyment from speedy transportation? Etc.

   That is a fundamental misunderstanding of creation. God gives us the good gift of wine, to make the heart glad, to celebrate His creation, to feast at wedding banquets (hopefully on the good stuff saved for last), and to feast with Him at the messianic banquet each Lord’s Day and at His return. Sinful humans abuse God’s good gifts, by driving drunk, by loosing inhibitions or engaging in physical abuse, etc. The fault is not in the good gift of God; the fault is in the sinful human. The sin should be avoided, not the good gift. Indeed, proper use of the good gifts pleases God and could be considered a sign of regeneration and sanctification.

   Drunk driving and resultant deaths are real tragedies, as were the numerous deaths from spousal abuse that prompted American prohibition – sad consequences of our sinful use of creation, as well as such an un-biblical line of reasoning, are not new. While alcohol did not contribute to drunk driving in the Ancient Near East, it did contribute to physical abuse, neglect, etc. – they too had “city slums.” Christ, however, did not say, “Hey, sin is directly attributable to my good gifts to you; I command you to avoid wine.” Indeed, he not only drank the stuff, he made it to celebrate, not only a local wedding, but also the beginning of his ministry – and not just any wine, really good stuff. Would one dare charge him with a lack of concern for the “deaths that are directly attributed to alcohol abuse and less concern with the loss of the liberties that are too often used as an excuse for self indulgence”?

   But that is, nonetheless, not the point. The point is that no matter how good a rule might be, one cannot give it divine authority, or even the appearance of divine authority, unless it is indeed from God Himself. To do so, or to support such, however pious motivation (and these bans are not necessarily motivated by Biblical or even human piety), is to grievously sin. The debate was not only between Christ and the Pharisees, or Paul and the Galatians, but also between the Protestant Reformers and their Roman Catholics counterparts.

   Ironically the show is about not out-holying God himself, a point illustrated by the pious “reminder,” a misinterpretation, and misapplication of James. James speaks of loose babble as opposed to humor (another good gift of God) or intentional speech, even intentional condemnation. Both Christ and Paul, when confronting those who sought to add to God’s law without divine sanction, displayed attitudes, used language, and employed cutting wit and wrathful vehemence. We ought to be careful to not to raise our personal sensibilities as a divine standard for behavior, one that Christ and Paul would not meet.

   Indeed, one might argue that replacing God’s law with human inventions, such as alcohol prohibitions, and admonishing others to comply with our particular conception of piety/respect, are two sides of the same coin, an image that aptly illustrates the point that the show intended to make.

7. Jul 2, 2006Vic   #

   Great answer Doc!

8. Jul 2, 2006dan dundon   #

   I hope I did not give Dr. Rosenthal the impression that I agree with the Southern Baptist position on alcohol cunsumption. I began my post stating that I believe that moderation of alcohol use is taught in the Scriptures. I drink beer on occasion. My wife buy a six pack and it lasts three months.

   I am concerned about the huge drug problem (alcohol is a drug ya know!) in America. While I differ with our Southern Baptists brothers over many key issues there is something in me that admires their action. What is the URC doing to curtail the abuse of alcohol in America?

   I also don’t want the visitors of this site to think that all URC people are as disrespectful as the use of the term “Southern Fried Baptists” implies. You guys could have written all day and not have written that!

9. Jul 2, 2006Silva Stepanian   #

   OK, pastors, stop bashing self-righteousness or your religion will be worthless. I think that “tight rein on your tongue” in James means a perpetual vow of silence. I think we should add this to the church laws along with the no alcohol law. This keeps getting better!

10. Feb 6, 2007Jeff   #

    My older brother was hit by a car while crossing an intersection and died. . .the speeding driver was drunk. . .However, even with my loss, I can rationally distinguish between drunkeness and those that have a glass of wine once in a while with a meal. We have to remember that the Bible speaks against the state of being drunk. We can not be holier the patriarchs of the Bible to include Jesus. Our Lord was wrongfully accused of being a drunkard, by the religious crowd. However, he did drink a little wine but most of the biblical patriarchs did. Personally, I don’t drink or smoke but adding extra little man-made rules of self-righteousness to doctrine to me is dead works of the flesh not of the spirit. May Lord Jesus be praised.