Sinners & Saints

6 comments so far

1. Sep 23, 2006John Calvin   #

   Rev. Adam M. Kaloostian,
   “he was
   introduced to the “five points of Calvinism.” as stated in the ontario reformed church website.

2. Sep 25, 2006Dave G   #

   Hate to sound critical of my URC/Westminster homeboys, but…y’all sounded pretty angry for much of this podcast. (“They can’t call themselves Reformed! WE’RE the ones who’re really Reformed!”) Is this really the best way to counteract the stereotype of Calvinists as mean-spirited?

3. Sep 25, 2006David Gadbois   #

   I’d like to point out the the opinions of “Dave G” are not the opinions of David Gadbois 🙂

4. Sep 28, 2006Joel Weyrick   #

   Hey, I was a little disheartened listening to your program on the “Reformed” situation in the SBC. You seem to assume that there are decent churches in most places. Unfortunately, not everyone lives in SoCal, western Iowa, and the Grand Rapids area. It seems that many churches actually have responded to the Reformed soteriological doctrines as in the recent Baptist Press poll of pastors indicates. Would you prefer that these folks leave their churches and go to a mainline denomination or something?

   Thanks for reading,
   Joel

5. Sep 28, 2006Rev. Adam Kaloostian   #

   Hi everyone, great feedback, keep it coming, here’s my thoughts:

   1- Are we angry? I can only speak for myself. Yes, to a degree, I am angry, that’s a fair perception. There is a difference, however, between just anger and rash mean-spiritedness. So I re-listened to the show, and in this case I defend my anger as substantive and just. But either way, try not to let me drown out the truth of what were saying on the show.

   We are genuinely thankful for any increasing awareness and acceptance of Reformed soteriological doctrines. However, we’ve noticed a disturbing pattern, that particular leaders or churches or movements will incorporate the “five points of Calvinism” into their ministry without any of the other central tenets of the biblical faith, especially the Reformed view of the sacraments. We have had pastors bring their whole churches into our federation (and if you’re a pastor reading this and liking what you’re hearing, let me encourage you to contact us), but this is unfortunately rare.

   There’s the analogy of the $75 dinner at a steak house. Here it comes on the silver platter–a great marbled rib-eye, garlic-mashed potatoes as fluffy as a cloud, perfectly blanched green beans, and . . .a big hunk of dog manuer.

   No matter how good the steak, we can’t recommend that people eat at the steakhouses that serve dog manuer. No matter how good the preaching of justification and the “5 points” (often not as good as those who sit under it think it is, by the way), we can’t recommend that people stay in churches that corrupt the sacraments, no matter how good the 5 points. Plus, all the Bible’s teaching is interrelated, so bad theology in one area spills over into many areas, just as manuer smell and runoff will spoil your steak.

   The real reason for our “anger” on this particular show is that teachers who know better still call themselves “Reformed,” when they are not. And the Christianity Today article talks on the front page about “Reformed” but doesn’t have much to say about the Reformed in the article. The label “Reformed” is important because it represents a certain definable, biblical set of beliefs – http://www.start.urclearning.org/what . When those beliefs are improperly defined or applied, it misleads God’s people. That’s something worth being angry about, though of course that anger must be channeled biblically. And, we’re not “angry” with the mass of people in various places who are unsuspecting victims of errant teaching.

   In my experience, as we have said and will say on other shows, accusations against the Reformed of unjust anger or “mean-spiritedness” are usually attributable to one of three things: a) the person being accused is not a member of a true, Reformed church and is just some obnoxious zealot along his journey somewhere; b) the accuser creates the problem in his mind as an excuse to resist the truth; or c) the Reformed person is sinning. In every case, repentance is required.

   2- Do we know better than to assume that there are decent churches in most places? I hope so, and we continue to work on rectifying the problem.

   We would use the word “true” churches, distinguished by three marks, which you hear us talking about all the time: the pure preaching of the gospel, the legitimate administration of the sacraments, and the proper exercise of church discipline. Churches either hit these marks or they don’t, it’s not a sliding scale. All churches are very weak and have their share of problems, but some are “true” and some aren’t–that’s the important difference–you know Christ meets you at a “true” church’s worship service.

   But you got all that, and you are asking: what is one supposed to do when there is simply no “true” church around?

   a) Contact us and we’ll see if we can help you find one. If we can’t, we’ll put you in our database which we are developing as a strategic church-planting planning tool.

   b) In the meantime, some places that don’t meet the criteria will be better for you than others, but only temporarily. Maybe a confessional Lutheran congregation, or a confessional Presbyterian congregation would work for a time (and although they have important differences from our confessional continental Reformed churches, some of these may bear the three marks). Get in touch with us and we’ll help you look and discern.

   c) If any of you know of people with you and around you who want to learn more, and who may be interested in forming a group for further study, discussion, or church-planting, let us know. Maybe the Lord will call you to be the one who will get pastoral training and lead the group. Maybe one among you can be identified as a good candidate for pastoral ministry. Let us be introduced to your group, it’s very possible we will come out to see you and see what can be done. Maybe we’ll send a church planter to you. No group yet? Get whatever people you can (professing Christians or not) to the website to start learning more together, to see if a group develops.

   3- I assume the post which referenced my bio on our church’s website took issue with the fact that I am criticizing those who merely believe the “five points of Calvinism,” when I in fact a few years ago was precisely in that position.

   Let me share a bit about that time in my life. There were at least two closer friends (later to become ministerial colleagues) who regularly told me that I needed to get into a “true” church, as described above. I used to laugh at them, if I even understood them. They were so sectarian and radical in my mind I couldn’t hear them. Problem was, over time, the more I studied the Scripture, the more I came to the conviction that those three marks were crucial; and that not finding Christ where He wants to meet me is basically saying I didn’t want Christ. The guys were right.

   The point is, one day, by God’s grace, I got it, and left all my plans and a plush “church” job, and got myself into a Reformed church, and shut my mouth and worshipped Christ in truth and was fed by the means of grace. What I did then is called repentance–the Holy Spirit brought me to an understanding of the importance of being in a true church and I, sort of kicking and screaming, went.

   I understand there are good Christian people along the journey into a true church. Let me just encourage anyone who will listen to have the courage to make the move. If you don’t see the importance of it, continue to study the Reformer’s clear, distinctive, biblical teachings about the gospel, the sacraments, and church discipline; and whatever the cost, follow Christ and the Scripture and go where you may be objectively confident you will find Him, and where He wants you.

   Some people who knew me then, who shared my convictions about the “five points,” but didn’t make a similar move as I did, later asked me, “Adam, you are the one who changed, you became more radical–is it right for you to now criticize us?” Well, friends, you are in error, and I care about you, and I am a worm who is no better than you in any way, and I know what it was like to be where you are, and it’s not a good place, so all I can do is encourage you to biblically consider our claims. Hopefully, you’ll come where you need to be, and where I need to be–where Christ, as He tells us in His Word, wants us.

   Okay, enough of my rambling; as always, thanks for listening!

6. Sep 30, 2006inwoo   #

   thanks for clearing that up.