Sinners & Saints

13 comments so far

1. Sep 17, 2007doug sowers   #

   I am interested in just how you shook up the chicken coup.

2. Sep 17, 2007Rev. Adam Kaloostian   #

   We received some phone calls, emails, etc., from some unhappy folks when this series aired originally over the radio. . .that’s all we’re referring to there. -amk

3. Jul 16, 2008Concerned CC'er   #

   I really think you’ve “swallowed a camel” on this topic brothers. I’ve been affiliated with a Calvary Chapel for nearly six years now and have been studying through the Timothy’s and Corinthians with the local pastor and a few other brothers for over a year now on how to properly structure a church with leadership. Neither my local Calvary Chapel nor its lead pastor have ever promoted the teaching of pastoral authority. Our local church practices scriptural authority (2 Tim 3:16), not pastoral authority. Our pastor (who studied under Chuck Smith and is a product of the “Jesus movement”) is dependant upon the elders of the church and is subject to not only God and the elder leadership, but also to the congregation. I have so many points that I would like to bring up after listening to part I, but let me just limit it to two:

   1. Calvary Chapels are not under authority to any “head” pastor or church. Each church using the Calvary Chapel name is autonomous. Each chapel has its own mission statement, statement of faith, church heirarchy and whatnot. There have been instances where Chuck Smith and other local CC pastors have gotten together and asked certain organizations to cease using the Calvary Chapel label, but they are in no way an authority over any other chapel. Chuck Smith is in no way my “pope” and neither is my local pastor(s).

   2. My opinion is that you are also making a mountain out of a grain of sand over Chuck’s story of how he disassociated himself from one group and started his other fellowship. It would surprise me very much if Chuck thought himself to be anything other than a vessel of God and a servant to His Will. From the teachings that I’ve heard from Chuck and my experience through various conferences and such is that Chuck teaches that each pastoral role is a role based on servanthood, not authority. I have never experienced any sort of dictative philosophy being executed or preached. The comments about being a “hired” employee to businessmen is (in my opinion) nothing more than to say that a position of leadership shouldn’t be contractually obligated or “competed” for. It should be a calling and a place of service based on God’s sovereign Will.

   I’m going to have to stop here for now. Thank you for the opportunity to post and blessings on your mission!

4. Jul 16, 2008Ben Lovelace   #

   I attended a Foursquare Church in Modesto California for may years, I also worked for their District Office for a short time. The attitude Chuck Smith displayed is not uncommon in the Foursquare. We were taught that the church must be Sr. Pastor driven. Everything flowed down from him. The direction and vision for ministry, obviously the teaching. We were tought to be submissive to him, because he was our shepherd. I think since you did this expose on Calvary Chapel, you really need to look at the Foursquare Church and their un-biblical view of church leadership. It all started with Aimee Semple McPhereson or “Sister Aimee” as they call her, the rest is history.

5. Jul 17, 2008seth   #

   I used to attend a Calvary Chapel and there are plenty earnest brothers and sisters there. But I feel that they were being deprived of sound preaching, almost every sermon was geared toward the lost. Also it seems that there was a real lack of understanding when it came to the sacraments and a total neglect of study of the historical Christian Faith. I think that the oldest books in the book store were Andrew Murrays’. There is no doubt that Chuck Smiths doctrinal views were emphasized if not enforced and I that is a shame because many false teachings are put forward in his writings. I pray that God would use faithfull men to expose the problems and spare the flock.

6. Jul 19, 2008Pastor John   #

   I am glad to hear that you have taken the time to listen to our CC pod cast and to consider our concerns. As I mull over your remarks I am struck by how they really don’t fit with the official statements of CC or Chuck Smith.

   For instance, you argue that your local CC and local pastor don’t promote Chuck’s view of pastoral authority. But it is hard to see how you can remain affiliated without doing that, since following the Calvary Chapel Distinctives, written by Chuck, is a requirement for affiliation, and that set of distinctives mandates the view that the pastor is Moses who rules over the people, with the elders are under him. If your local CC doesn’t teach that, wonderful, but then you are not following CC guidelines, and CC guidelines prescribed by Chuck, were the things we were attacking in the show. The S & S broadcast was simply critiquing the official position of CC, not the actual practice of every CC, even though they promised to uphold those distinctives.

   As for your claim that CC’s are not under the authority of any “head” pastor, and that Chuck doesn’t function as a pope, since all CC’s are independent, it really amounts to a distinction without a difference. If Chuck prescribes what you are to believe (and he does), if Chuck requires all CC ministers to listen to his through the Bible series before they can affiliate (and he does), if Chuck decides on the applications for affiliation (and he does), and if Chuck has the unilateral authority to disaffiliate CC’s which aren’t following his rules (and he does), then it iss obvious that Chuck functions as the pope of CC. I realize that word, for obvious reasons, has unsavory connotations, but it is hard to deny that Chuck fulfills a role analogous to the Pope.

   Finally, you seem to think we are making too much of Chuck’s rebellious attitude displayed in his departure from the Corona church. Well, it seems problematic for a guy to claims to be a humble servant of Jesus, and at the same time refuse to take guidance from elders who have been charged with overseeing the church. As long as the elders are not in violation of God’s word, then a pastor is obligated to submit to the elders, or peaceably withdraw. The story of Chuck’s departure is filled with name calling, criticism —-basically charging the elders with worldliness (which is a very serious charge by the way), and manifests a spirit of arrogance. Now, from Chuck’s perspective what he did was o.k. because after all, he is Moses, who hears from the Lord, and who is above everyone else. Its precisely that kind of attitude which we argued was inconsistent with the claim of being a “humble servant” and out of accord with the Biblical model of pastoral submission to elder authority. To us, that is not making a sand castle out of a few grains of sand.

   I hope you will consider these things well. If you do, and you also carefully evaluate CC doctrine and practice in light of the scriptures and the reflection of the church throughout the ages, I am confident you will see that CC manifests a very sectarian spirit and lacks doctrinal depth and balance. We would argue one major reason that is true is because CC is presided over by one man, who is basically untaught, and unwilling to learn from the broader church or the history of the church. It would be surprising, given those circumstances, if CC did not manifest shallowness and doctrinal imbalance, since no one individual has a corner on all the truth.

   Pastor John

7. Aug 15, 2009Calvin Chapel   #

   As a person who is both an alumnus of Calvin College AND Calvary Chapel…I must say this program is PATHETIC!!! You could exchanged the name “John Calvin” for “Chuck Smith” and your program would be just as accurate.

   I am planning on going to a Calvary Chapel tomorrow for church NOT an anti-Semitic, self-centered, “wish you the world respected you” Reformed museum!

8. Aug 15, 2009Rev. John Sawtelle   #

   Thanks for stopping by URC learning. I am glad you took time to post your comments. We always appreciate feedback from people who take the time to listen to what is posted on the site. If you have some specifics you would like to share with us about why you thought what you heard was so pathetic, we would welcome those remarks too.

   Pastor John

9. Oct 2, 2009Bryan   #

   Calvin Chapel,
   Interesting name BTW. I used to be a CALVARYITE (Calvary Chapel attendee) for many years. I understand where you are coming from as far as church goes, right on. May I ask why your disgruntled attitude about this show, in more detail.

   Thank you.

10. Oct 2, 2009Rev. John Sawtelle   #

    Bryan,

    Basically, we think that the very concepts that underlie Calvary Chapel are a complete distortion of scripture. To package up the Arminian gospel, the refusal to be a church just be a chapel, and to have Chuck Smith run the whole thing out of Costa Mesa, while wrapping the false doctrines up in the facade of being a bunch of Bible teaching, Bible believing folks who just want to win a few hippies for Jesus, is a sham that needs to be exposed. Calvary Chapel has made itself name brand Christianity in So Cal and people listen to what Calvary Chapel has to say about as mindlessly as Roman Catholics listen to the pope. If you are going to sell yourself as simple, apostolic Christianity, you better be able to explain why your doctrine and why your practices are Biblical, and not just that they are apostolic because Chuck claims he has a spiritual pipeline to hear straight from God.

11. Oct 3, 2009Matt Kafkaloff   #

    Whats even more frightening than pope chuck,was the late lonnie frisbee who in reality started the cc movement and the vineyards. (I invite all cc members to do research on the history of your movement )Lonnie was knocking people over with the power of the spirit before benny hinn became famous.lonnie frisbee” number one disciple is the great greg laurie.The foundation of cc was rotten from the beginning.One good kick on the door and the whole cc movement will eventually crumble.

12. Oct 28, 2009Alison Van Lankvelt   #

    I was a die-hard ‘Calvary Chapel-ite’ for nearly 10 years and had been going there since my conversion at age 16. I didn’t grow up going to church so Calvary was all I really knew. We had a church split in January ’07 and I ended up leaving. GOD in His grace began to open my eyes to a lot of things dealing with Church government at first due to the split, then He began to reform me. I only wish that I had heard and known about the things you guys are sharing on here years ago. I could’ve spent a lot more time learning Scripture in an environment where the Bible is taught expositionally rather than allegorically. I am thankful for Calvary in many ways because they taught me to study my Bible and made me very familiar with the Scriptures even if I don’t agree with most things I was taught there. It only took a matter of months for GOD to open my eyes and cause me to be fully convince me of the Doctrines of Grace because I was so well versed in the Scriptures. And now, He’s given me a great passion for gently and lovingly talking to my old friends from Calvary about our Sovereign Grace GOD. Soli DEO Gloria! May He open many eyes and receive all the glory due unto Him!

13. Jul 8, 2011Carla B.   #

    I just found your website today-I was initially looking for baptism information. I just wanted
    to address this page, as I was raised Presbyterian for the first 17 years of my life. I
    never understood Christianity until I went to Calvary Chapel in 1985. My entire life changed
    and I got re-baptized in the Pacific Ocean. God
    took away my desire for secular music and gave me a spiritual burden for the world to come to know Him. My life has never been the
    same, and I read through the entire Bible again
    and again. It is not a perfect church, but I have met enough humble people who only want God’s glory that I could never condemn this movement. Now that I am homeschooling,
    I have run across Calvinistic families who have some great things to say. However, there can be a lack of love in some of these families, and
    an air of superiority. I also find they tend to
    spiritualize some Scriptures that ought to be taken literally.
    Ultimately, we shouldn’t be surprised at how God has used Calvary Chapel with its humble beginnings, for as the apostle Paul wrote-
    “For consider your calling, brethren, that there
    were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
    but God has chosen the foolish things of the
    world to shame the wise…”
    (I Cor 1:26, 27)
    And remember, “knowledge puffs up, but love
    edifies.” May we continue to walk in His love,
    and follow the examples of uneducated fishermen and sinful tax collectors in proclaiming His salvation to a lost and dying world.