Part three of three in a series evaluating the Chuck Smith/Calvary Chapel movement addresses the Calvary Chapel position on the Arminian/Calvinist debate. The Calvary Chapels are decidedly “Arminian,” but the historic Protestant church is “Calvinist.” These labels are important because they describe how different people understand the basic biblical answers to life’s most important questions.
Oct 9, 2006
Calvary Chapel Remix | part 3
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12 comments so far
Dec 27, 2006Norman D. Goza #
i listened to your series on the calvary chapel movement. i attend a calvary church under the shepherding of pastor david rosales. however i find myself in disagreement with a few of their doctrines,most notably, tongues as a gift for personal devotion. it is difficult to share my observation with fellow members. once i was told perhaps i do not belong there by a bible study leader. i do believe i belong there and recently have been given a receptive ear by the head of one of the ministries. we look at the bible and he comes with a open mind and a heart without prejudice. how can i receive copies of these tapes or cd’s. thank you. i do not feel so all alone now. i always ask christ to lead me but now i do not know if i should continue here at c.c. what iam trying to say is it my flesh speaking to me or the holy spirit.
Dec 28, 2006Adam Kaloostian #
Since you attend Calvary Chapel Chino Valley, you are local, so the best way to get free copies of the shows is to come and visit us. Come to the church of ours nearest you, and make it a point to introduce yourself to us. Pastor John’s church is in Diamond Bar (http://www.allsaintsreformed.org/), Pastor Adam’s church is in Ontario (http://ontariourc.org/), and Pastor Movses’ church is in Pasadena (http://pasadenaurc.org/). We’ll help you get copies of the show, and as we get to know you better, help you work through your other questions. Thank you so much for listening and we look forward to meeting you!
Jan 23, 2007david rosales #
i just noticed a post by one of the members of my church concerning a question he has…your encouragement for him to visit one of your churches to personally meet one of its pastors and personal counsel from one of them was not appreciated…seeing that he is receiving counsel from one of my staff members, perhaps you could have told him to continue going to the church he attends until he is certain that he needs to leave…if he would like, he could speak to me about his questions and i will do my best to help him come to a solution…to be honest, it would have been more proper for you to encourage him to continue meeting with the brother he is meeting with until he knows that either he should stay or leave…also, you could have sent him copies of the tapes without telling him to visit one of your churches…this had the appearance of “sheep stealing” and i am fairly certain you would not want to be evangelizing the evangelized…
Jan 23, 2007Adam Kaloostian #
Mr. Rosales,
People who say they follow Jesus should go to churches where Jesus wants them to go; that is, churches where His gospel is purely preached, where His sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s Supper are properly administered, and where His oversight and shepherding by the elders is legitimately exercised. Since Calvary Chapels do not meet these three basic biblical requirements, we would not advise anyone to
go or stay there.
Instead, we invite all people who are part of Calvary Chapels (or any kind of a group that doesn’t bear these three marks of true religion) to learn more about us, and to examine what they hear from us in light of God’s holy, perfect Word. As they learn more about these basic Bible teachings, they naturally begin to visit our churches, and ultimately they seek to become members of our congregations.
We do not apologize for teaching people to grow in their walk with the Lord by asking them to think from the Scripture about where Jesus wants them to be in church. That kind of obedience should be an early step on the road of Christian discipleship. We teach people to follow Christ and His Word, as opposed to following errant teachers and their misrepresentations of the Bible’s basic teachings.
People who end up in our churches come from many different
backgrounds, including many Calvary Chapels, also including your Calvary Chapel in Chino. In this series, we highlighted some of the ways in which Calvary Chapels in particular have built a whole church movement on distinctive beliefs that are different from what the Christian church has learned from the Bible over hundreds, even thousands, of years. In that sense, if anyone could be accused of “sheep-stealing,” it’s
the Calvary Chapels.
In the particular case of this gentleman, if your group taught and practiced what the Bible teaches in the three areas listed above, we would very much instruct him to stay and work out his differences, with proper respect for duly appointed men in authority. That is, indeed, the biblical model. Also, under no circumstances do we encourage him, no matter where he is, to be unnecessarily antagonistic and divisive. We rather advise him to peaceably leave and seek a church which faithfully confesses and teaches the truth.
Feel free to comment publicly again on the site, or you may email us privately at info@start.urclearning.org. Maybe we can help clarify how we approach situations like this, or answer any further questions.
Jan 30, 2007Charles #
The three marks of the true Church must be there. It seems that in the Calvary system, there is a lack of proper Sacramental teaching and discipline. One wonders how discipline can be exercised where there is no membership! I have noticed over the years that people “outgrow” the Calvarys when they discover the Reformation. Charles
Feb 2, 2007Jeff #
Mr. Goza, I departed a charismatic, “Mom and Pop” operated cult. They did not practice Lord’s Supper (no communion in three years) . . . and the senior male pastor with approval from his controlling wife stated, “We are not going to install elders within the church because God told me not to (and after 6 years we had no elders)”. . . I left.
I agree with Pastor Kaloostian, please allow me to explain. When I was leaving this cult the last thing that I needed was to be counseled by non-biblical leaders. I was criticized and belittle somewhat when I ask questions concerning their twisted gospel. . .I encourage you Mr. Goza, Sir, pray and search God’s Word. The Holy Bible is the absolute truth. The cult I was in would pick and choose the scriptures in which they could use in a subjective way. Sir, we need to read the Bible and look at in an objective way. . .
I was being convicted to leave. At times, I was forcing myself to sit under a false gospel and to listen to this tripe; to the point I would actually become physically ill. Mr. Goza, it seems to me you are seeking the truth, I pray you find it. One last thing, the leadership of sects being questioned sometimes gets nasty. Don’t be surprised, if you are the one who gets blamed!. . .
PLEASE UNDERSTANDÂ I am not criticizing your clan, and I am not calling them a cult, as I don’t know them. . .I am basing my views on my experience and experiences of others in which have left cults. Also, if a church is teaching God’s Word rightly then they should not be worrying about sheep stealing. Usually, sheep will be loyal to truth of word and follow love without question. When a church is concerned about sheep stealing maybe they are the one’s not too secure? Mr. Goza, I live in southern Oklahoma and I have never met any of the URC pastors or have I been in one of their churches, so I have nothing to gain. May Lord Jesus receive all praise Jeff
Jul 10, 2008Jason #
God’s word is very animate about those who steal sheep from those teaching right doctrine. It says those who do that are cursed. It is very evident that those false teachers who do so are not in good standing with the Lord. So it is very serious to steal sheep. The fact that Jeff isn’t worried about that shows he is not as firmly grounded in the word as he thinks. I pray God through Christ make it clear to you by his word and not by your own understanding what the truth to this matter is, as serious as it is.
Nov 24, 2008Ray #
To those dealing with sheep.
I think that you gentlemen are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Everyone has a different opinion of stealing.
It sounds to me that you Pastor’s of God’s Wholly Word are insecure in what you are doing. You seem more worried about attendance figures and along with attendance comes money, than the well being of the flock.
Mr Rosales;
It seems that you are to worried about what your members are posting, than the things that you should be worried about.
Is your church so big that the members think that they can not come to you on a personal level and talk to you about their concerns?
Obviously one of your member’s is not happy with your staff member.
That should be ok. That should not be a problem.
He should come to you and address the situation.
I do not know if that member or your staff member talked to you about what was happening, but there should be open communication between everyone involved.
I have open communication with all staff members at my church.
I have gone thru counseling at times and I have counseled at times.
I feel that I can talk to any staff member any time, not just at church either.
I get along better with some than others, but that is ok.
In the end were all family.
You need to remember that this is a free country and each of us has the right to worship where we want.
We all get fed in different ways.
What works for me and my family might not work for you and your family.
I know people that have come out of the JW movement to attend another church.
I do not agree with the JW movement and its teachings.
Am I now considered a sheep stealer?
The JW church would say yes!!!!!
But I know that my pastor and my friends would say no.
The bottom line comes down to what did you do with God’s Son, Jesus.
Do we accept Him as your Lord and Savior?
Do we want to know Him and Him to know us?
Do we want to share God’s love and good news with the world?
If we answer yes to these questions, than
that is what we need to do.
We will never make everyone happy all the time.
For whatever reasons; right, wrong or indifferent, people leave churchs to go to other churchs.
We do not know what is inside people’s hearts.
Only the Lord knows.
If everybody was just like me, this would probably be a boring place.
These are my thoughts and comments.
Whether you gentlemen think my thoughts and comments are right or wrong will not change anything with you.
You 2 can argue about this forever and not be happy with what ever the outcome is.
My bottom line is that I want to share Jesus’s love with the world and thank him everyday that he is my Lord and Savior and that I am Saved and washed in the blood and going to Heaven.
I thank you for being able to share my thoughts and comments.
Jan 9, 2010JohnP #
I would recommend that Calvinists attending Calvary Chapel unite with a church that’s part of a tradition that has some background in Calvinism.
I had a negative experience in a church from an Arminian background. As a Calvinist, I sought to help out at this church and thought that I was for the most part accepted and affirmed in my service despite differences of belief. The pastor of the church later made it clear publicly that I didn’t have his support. This was a blessing in one sense, because it was, I believe, the way the Lord showed me with more clarity about how he felt about my service there and led me in my service to Him, but from a human standpoing, it was difficult.
Because we’re all sinners, there will always be interpersonal issues to work through in churches. When there’s at least agreement on the nature of God’s grace to us, though, it will make dealing with other issues easier. Now, this church wasn’t a Calvary Chapel, and don’t intend any disrespect to those part of the Calvary Chapel tradition, but since Calvary Chapels are Arminian for the most part, it would be most conducive to Christian unity, the peace of the church, and interpersonal relationships for Calvinists to find churches that have a background in Calvinism.
Jun 7, 2010No Name #
THE CHUCK SMITH & LOVESONG TOUR
Chuck Smith is going on a preaching tour with Lovesong, the early 1970s Calvary Chapel singing group, to bring dropouts from the early days of Calvary Chapel back into their fold. Based on the Calvary Chapel movement’s background, and if his emphasis is what I heard (at the concert at Calvary Chapel East Anaheim on 6/0/10), I fear that they will remain in the shadows.
The early Calvary Chapel movement grew because of the hippie mentality. The hippies expected the dawning of the “Age of Aquarius.†Chuck Smith came and suggested a timetable, and even a date, for the return of Jesus, based on his unorthodox way of interpreting the Bible. This built on the hippie appetite for the novel. (See End Time Visions: The Road of Armageddon [Broadman & Holman], by Richard Abanes, for more information about Chuck’s date suggestion.)
Many hippies accepted a form of monism that elevated individual desire and mysticism in their personal experiences. The Calvary Chapel movement, through Lovesong and other groups, focused on personal experience, physical expression, and mysticism rather than being as focused on God and the work of Jesus Christ. Hippies felt more at home with them. (See Hank Hanegraaff’s book Counterfeit Revival [Word Publications] to learn about the type of worship experiences that some within the early Calvary Chapel movement came to embrace.)
The hippies failed to emphasize the mind in thinking through social and personal problems, which led to strange political beliefs and lifestyle problems. Chuck Smith, with his background in the Pentecostal Foursquare church, emphasized a very feelings-oriented approach to issues related to the Christian faith, which led to those in the early Calvary Chapel movement vesting authority in individuals like Chuck Smith and other leaders instead of using our minds to understand the Bible. This was consistent with the hippie mentality. (See Chuck Smith’s pamphlet called Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Word of God [The Word for Today] to learn about the way that Chuck Smith approaches theology.)
The hippies distrusted the traditions of the United States, including the things that they considered “traditional†that were associated with the church. Chuck Smith taught that the churches were unfaithful in the early 70s, and taught that God, through him and the Calvary Chapel movement, brought revival. This fed their distrust of the church as an institution. (See Chuck Smith’s book Harvest to learn about the way that he and others in the Calvary Chapel movement viewed other Christian churches.)
I fear that Chuck Smith’s current approach won’t help those who dropped out of the Calvary Chapel movement because he may not focus on what Jesus did for us through His death and resurrection.
Chuck, in his sermon after Lovesong finished their concert, emphasized that we, as Christians, are free from sin’s power, but mentioned little if anything about Jesus dying to pay for our sins. And so, instead of emphasizing that we’re free from sin’s penalty through faith in Jesus Christ, Chuck emphasized that Jesus gives us freedom from sin’s power in our lives on this side of eternity.
The Calvary Chapel dropouts need another message. They know that we’re not entirely free from sin’s power on this side of eternity. Not only does the Bible tell us that we continue to struggle with sin as believers (see Romans 7), but some of them have been raked over the coals because of their own sins and the sins of others. They need to be told that they’re saved from sin’s penalty through faith in Jesus, despite their struggles and failures in their lives. Jesus died to pay for our sins so that we won’t be punished for them. God, through faith in Jesus, gives us Jesus’ “good†to cover our “bad†so that we’re seen as being good when we’re really not. In other words, they need to be taught about the work of Jesus Christ and the Bible’s teaching about justification (see Romans 3-5), emphasized through the Protestant Reformation and the churches that flourished as a result.
Chuck’s solution won’t fix people’s problems because he doesn’t emphasize that Christians continue to sin. In fact, he really seemed to manipulate folks at the end of the service to get people to come forward for the altar call. He asked everyone to ask God for help to overcome the power of sin Then, he asked those who asked for help to raise a hand so God would see their raised hand. Lastly, he asked everyone who raised a hand to come forward, and then led them in a prayer to become Christians. It would have been easy to infer from what he said that those who struggle with sin aren’t Christians, but if they came forward they would become a Christian and from that day forward have new victory over all of their struggles.
The truth is at mature Christians struggle with sin. The hippie mentality hurts instead of helps those in the Calvary Chapel movement. They need to be told about freedom from the penalty of sin and question and abandon unhealthy aspects of the hippie mentality.
Jun 13, 2011Henry Moore #
The cc that i go to teaches the Bible verse by verse. The pastor is a loving humble person that loves the Lord and he loves the sheep. How do you argue with that? How do you argue with teaching the Bible verse by verse…when there are so many churches that dont do that? If you simply teach Gods Word you can’t go wrong!!
Jun 14, 2011Rev. John Sawtelle #
Henry,
I am glad to know that your CC pastor teaches the Bible verse by verse, that is better that nothing. However, CC has always claimed it teaches verse by verse, yet this claim is patently false. It is impossible to teach through 10 chapters of the Bible in a single service, as many claim they do. The reality is they simply skip from one verse to another like a frog jumps across a pond. That kind of “teaching” is not exposition, it amounts to nothing more than backing a truck full of ideas up to a verse then reading those ideas into the verse under consideration, along with “funny” stories of course, and then calling it teaching the Bible verse by verse. As for your “pastor” I am glad to hear he is a nice and humble man; you still should be aware however, that he teaches Chuch Smith’s version of false Christianity.
I hope you keep listening to the pod casts so that you can learn more about what the historic Christian church has taught and confessed.
Grace and peace,
Pastor John